Charles Hoskinson: CARDANO (ADAs Future Revealed)

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I would love to be the tayor Swift of Blockchain Charles I just want to say You know before we get into the the the Depths of cardano the nuts and bolts of Cardano the governance moves that we're Making with cardano I want to talk about The governance of America I don't know If you're aware RFK is an avid Falconer And has been for decades can you talk a Little bit are you still falcony and Would you consider inviting him out to The ranch to do a little hunting with You what are your thoughts on RFK oh I Love the guy you know he uh he writes Great books that are well sourced the Real Anthony fouchy or the the Wuhan uh Conspiracy with the whole uh the lab Stuff um he's he's a very thoughtful guy 70 years old you know he's super Disciplined works out every day and uh You know he's a part of American royalty His dad was Robert Kennedy you know got Shot in I think 68 over at The Ambassador Hotel and then his uncle was AR was JFK got shot in 63 so he lost two Parents his uncle and his dad to Probably the Deep State uh so uh no one Has a bigger axe to grind with uh the The war on the institutions of America Which are no longer serving the American People and so it's nice to have him Around I really hope he picks Tulsi Gabbert as his his VP and I think he'll Get about 10 15% of the vote in this

Election cycle if Biden runs but it's Hard to know if Biden's actually still Viable or not the special prosecutor Report just came out and they said we're Not going to charge him because he's not Mentally fit to be charged you know it's Like it's a guy who's not mentally fit To stand trial but he's going to be President for another four years the Most complex job in America it's a clown Car well he hit that Podium I was gonna Say he hit that Podium last night 7:30 Pm. to let people know how he felt and I I think we're still seeing the Repercussions from that but will you Invite him out to the ranch will we see You and RFK balconing together I mean it Would be fun to meet him and spend some Time I've never had a chance to Interac Or meet RFK and uh you know at some Point we'll cross pass yeah I know a lot Of politicians and I talked to him on a Pretty regular basis and we were Planning on doing a few things on the Republican side just because that's Where all the pro crypto people are and The Democrats have lost their mind but It'd be a lot of fun talk to RFK and if You know if he's up for it I'd more than Happy to have him come up and see the Bison and enjoy Wyoming uh it's a real Fun place to be what are your thoughts On his political background in terms of Incorporating crypto to debt issues that

We have in the United States he's very Pro Bitcoin what are your thoughts just Overall and him actually talking about Making it a reserve for the currency of The United States is there an issue with The US dollar and just what are your Thoughts overall on integrating that Into our culture yeah well one of the Functions of central banks are to create An asset portfolio so they they carry Things like gold or other foreign Currencies and inventory and that helps Give some credibility to the money That's in circulation but you know it's All fractional almost everything that's Floating around is Fiat so it don't Really matter if you buy some di Minimus Amount amount of Bitcoin and you store It at the end of the day the US dollar Is completely unbacked and we have $34 Trillion doar in debt and everything's Gone to Hell on the monetary side um and The only reason why the dollar is Holding is because it's still the world Reserve currency but you see with bricks And you see where're the world's become Multi-polar that's probably not going to Be the case the next 10 to 20 years so If the United States was smart they'd Start talking about International Reserve currency make it a Cryptocurrency and make sure that we Carve out our interests because what's Going to happen is otherwise the dollar

Will die a slow heat death uh and we Won't have bargaining power in the next 10 years or 20 years to be able to force That outcome uh so there's an Inevitability behind it and it's frankly The whole foreign policy of China you Know they say look Belt Road we're Including the digital Yuan they have uh They have their own currency with it you Know it's a uh 200 million users with The People's Bank of China are getting Onto their cbdc and they're connecting It to social credit and part of their Foreign policy with all the deals They're doing with African countries is Saying you accept our econ EIC order and Start using the digital Yuan um we see It in Burundi we see it in Z Zambia we See it all around so there's an they Have to do something and there needs to Be some Brett Woods basically 2.0 last Time we changed everything I think it Was Jamaica agreement like 1971 72 or Something like that so it's there's Something that has to be done yeah I'm Really excited about the governance uh The capabilities the possibilities Especially in Africa some of these Emerging Markets but you know you've Been talking about governance on cardano As well but you've also been fascinated With concrete lately a lot of people Might not know this you've been largely Looking at the foundational blocks of a

Society so Charles I must ask you how Often do you think about the Roman Empire that that Meme right you know I Bet he's thinking about other women and You're see like ah what did Marcus aelia Say I think about the Roman Empire all The time um you know I I love stoicism You know whether it be epitus or senica Or Marcus aurelus or any of the other uh Stoics and uh it's a Thousand-Year old Empire and there's a lot of lessons Learn both on the Republic side and on The Empire side about the sharing and Balance of power and the consequences of A of a governance failure that leads to Dictatorship and what dictators do over Time and uh and so everything in history Rhymes and you have to know your history To be able to know how to govern and to Know how to build uh so while technology Changes people don't change we still are Laden with cognitive biases where we Have ethical issues we're not able to See past ourselves and you know we die And even if you get very wise the Next Generation doesn't inherit that wisdom And every generation seems to think that Their problems are unique but they're Basically the same problems that people Had before you know my grandfather grew Up during a great depression and his Generation had deal with Great Depression World War II the Korean War He fought in the Korean War uh and also

He survived through Vietnam and many Other you know American events his Father dealt with World War I you know At the time the people thought that was The apocalypse war and a global pandemic A real one you know the Spanish flu and It was horrible uh so you know it things Happen uh and uh you have to know your History to be able to know what to do Today and how to govern today and so the Roman Empire is one of many great case Studies on that I think jumping off that Is a perfect just question regarding the Of course Tucker and Putin interview Last night where they went into bricks He brought up the bricks issues and Obviously Russia just became the President of the bricks groups here uh Recently within the last 12 months do You foresee just like any great rise and Fall of an Empire such as something like The Roman Empire that kind of rolls over Of course with the history and the rise And fall of our debts in society are you Worried at all about a brics initiative Or a replacement of that dollar and if So where do you see cardono and Ada Playing its role in governance in this New Future so I watched the interview it's Two hours long I mean the first question Was a 40 minute diet tribe on history When you go back to like the 8th century And you're talking about like who did

What who poisoned who uh it's pretty Interesting you know what was most Fascinating about that interview first Tucker I don't think was well prepared For it um and there was a lot of Opportunities where he could have really Drilled in uh and the the other thing is What Putin didn't say um and the absence Of the things he said is extremely Telling so uh Trump's guys they they Realize One universal truth which is that the United States and Russia have no reason To actually be aaries anymore uh we Don't really compete for the same Resources or interests or marketplaces And Russia has a third of our population And while they have a lot of land you Know their big goals integrate into Europe they tried they tried to join NATO they they they tried to join the European Union they tried to integrate And we for some reason embraced a Foreign policy where we basically said No you you stay on the outside the thing Is that when Trump got into office he Said hang on a second here they they They like our women they like buying our Sports teams their kids like going to Our universities and we don't share a Border with them and yeah there's Eastern Europe but at the end of the day When you set that aside the US and Russia have a lot to coordinate and

Cooperate on Russia and China are Overlapping in a sphere of influence in Asia so Russia and China are always Fighting for who's on top and Historically in the 20th century Russia Was the big actor and China was the we Took advantage of that this was Nixon's Famous move of going in and separating China from Russia and then making China Our Ally to basically project force and Power against the Soviet Union it was Held as one of the greatest geopolitical Winds of all time in the 20th century Well we could have done the exact same With Russia and split Russia from China Because the alternative is what's Happening now uh Putin alluded to this In the interview but like over 30% of All their trade is now with China and Russia it used to be 8% and what's going To happen is that Russia is now Inevitably going to become an economic Vassal of the Chinese Empire and so Putin doesn't want that but it's his Only option because he can no longer Trade with the West so now those two Countries are united and they're going To find a way to get India into it and Then you'll have the two most populous Countries in the world plus Russia the Largest country in the world all one Gigantic EUR Asian economic Block it's More powerful than Europe and the United States combined yeah and then basically

G to create their own economic system This was something that didn't need to Happen we could have negotiated Something and I think Putin was very Honest about the expansion of NATO it Did happen it expanded five times in the Last 40 years in 1986 Reagan and Gorbatov got together in rovic and they Were kind of talking around the breakup Of the Soviet influence and they said Look you know cherin Noy and all this Other things aren't really going so well For for Russia Afghanistan these types Of things uh let's kind of talk around How we're going to scale back so the First thing was pulling out of Eastern Germany and moving Eastward well there Was hundreds of thousands of Soviet Troops there and one of Reagan's biggest Policy objectives was tearing down the Berlin Wall he said Mr gorbatov tear Down this wall people remember the Speech well behind the scenes they were Negotiating this and they were starting To put in some red lines one of the red Lines that was established and accepted For decades in American foreign policy With Russia is Ukraine will never join NATO Ukraine will never join a European Alliance it is the sphere of influence Of Russia yeah and then suddenly you Elect Vladimir zalinski comes in because He's got dirt on Biden he thinks ah now Is the time we can move we can get the

Americans to back us and join NATO and The European Union and lo and behold the Russians inv vade to go and kill all of Them and replace them with puppet Government and so it's like there's all These tangling geopolitics that are on Both sides and it's so sad because Millions of people died from it over the Last 20 years you know with many people Yeah many people they're just not Thinking about the second order Consequences you know maybe thinking About it from aist iCal standpoint or Logical standpoint but speaking of Russia you know we do have he's a Canadian citizen but he has a Russian Background metalic when is the last time You've spoken to vitalic and are you two Still on speaking terms well we've never Not been on speaking terms I mean There's certainly books written that Make me look like the world's greatest Monster and you know these types of Things and I'm universally hated by Everybody it's kind of funny to be so Hated but then like so welcome I talked To many of the ethereum founders on a Regular basis like Anthony diorio we're On good terms obviously with Gavin wood We're using parody substrate and cardono You know part of their technology and Last time I talked to vitalic was at Stanford when we opened our lab at Stanford uh right around the same time

That they had a academic conference There last year s said hey vitalic he Said hey that's actually the place where They took that famous picture of italic With the sweatpants on and the girl next To him uh that that was the the same Event so you guys can out place you know That that event but you know I see him From time to time I thought I was going To see him at cig we just did a a Conference with the ethereum foundation On Quantum Computing and something Called oneshot signatures and the head Scientist of ethereum came Justin Drake And he he was there with the ethereum People and we brought our scientist and University of Edinburgh uh so we're on Good terms um not like we're going over For dinner every night you know we love We love each other and play golf but I I Wouldn't say it's adversarial at this Point we have our different spheres of Influence all right well when a lot of People think about ethereum they think About you know the stable coin ecosystem Now I I watched your interview with Dan Crypto Capital Ventures you know highly Recommend check out that interview if You haven't watched it and in regards to Usdc being on cardano you said it's not A money issue it's not the $10 million In fact it's not even a technical issue It's an issue that they don't seem to Have a strong desire to engage and at

The same time we have Gemini refusing to List cardano does it seem to be any kind Of coordinated effort to minimize Cardano's impact and what do you think That is well cardano's pretty scary you Know it's scary because we did Everything the right way and we're Johnny live a lot we're still here you Know we got liquid staking we didn't Take the VC money we're not really Connected to any of these things it was Like when FTX collapsed and Luna Collapsed they oh god what does this Mean for cardano said nothing we didn't Do business with these people it's so It's like we're okay everybody else is Falling apart I felt like an icelantic Bank during 2008 you know we were we're Doing all right you know um so I don't Know uh you know one hand I don't like Asset back stable coins I think they're Not crypto like 80 90% of all the actual Real money velocity and and value Transactions that are on chain are done With these things but at the end of the Day they're controlled by centralized Entities and the problem is when you Look at asset back stable coins connect Them to dex's excuse me Sexes so Centralized exchanges they have Gargantuan an enormous control and now We have a new actor the ETFs a huge Amount of control over crypto and so 10 Companies now basically control the

Cryptocurrency space I grew up in a time When everybody was like we're going to Eat the banks the Legacy Financial System crypto is going to win and the Exact opposite happened 10 companies got Together you know your black rock your Circle your coinbase and others and now They control 85% of all the value Movement storage and uh decisions made In the space and if you don't think so Think about the soft power of owning the Underlying asset or being an exchange or Being a stable coin provider if your Circle and you say you know there's this Hard Fork of ethereum there's chain A And B we're only going to support chain A because they have to pick a winner you Can't split your thing or else you have Fractional Reserve stable coin by Default you've just decided which chain Is legitimate because what are people Going to do say well we're just now Going to roll without a stable coin we Can't do it when 80% of all your Transactions are there so circle gets to Pick every Fork here forward of what is The winner for ethereum and it's the Same for the exchanges which one do they List and the same for the ETFs now with Bitcoin they have all this Bitcoin and If there's ever a fork they're like yeah We're going to divest Our coin on this chain and hold the coin On this chain that's soft power and so

Now soft power has been handed to 10 Regulated entities that control all the Value and volume so it's nice that Cardano is not looped into that uh but Eventually it will happen asset back Stable coins are inevitable you can't Get rid of them they will come in for Our part we've done a lot of research on Algorithmic stable coins we think There's a good road there which is the Point of the jet project but it is Something that concerns me um Sexes ETFs And Fin infrastructure like that asset Back stable coins because it's not Compatible with the long-term viability Of cryptocurrencies being decentralized They they will get captured if we allow This to continue yeah and you touched on It right there because I have a question In regards to obviously you left the Ethereum foundation back in like 2014 Before they received a lot of funding From groups like wanghin uh blockchain Labs I believe which is something that Vitalic is now an adviser for and that Obviously led into a lot of uh Controversial subjects and topics with Congress even now today in regards to Promethium their ties the SEC and all This potential collusion does that at All worry you that we see exchanges like Gemini not wanting to list cardano at All as well as uh you know now we have Aaron Kaplan the CEO of promethium

Trying to instate ethereum as somehow a Security are you worried that these Asset managers that have used de Centralization as a masquerade going to Come in and push decentralized projects Like yourself out they're trying but They can't succeed longterm um Free People Want to Be Free Money wants to be Free I mean we built cardano with Decentralization in mind we even created The index to measure it the invert Decentralization index so if you look at Every dimension of the project it wasn't How do you build something that's the Fastest or the lowest operating cost It's the most resilient and capable of Surviving and think about the durability Of Cardon it's been around in market for Six years it's gone through multiple Cycles from $148 down to 2 and a half Half cents up to three down to 25 and It's here it's Johnny Liv aot and it Keeps getting more decentralized it Keeps getting more capabilities and There's there's more than a hundred Countries that have people hold data uh And there's a lot of great decentralized Infrastructure that's been built and It's getting this amazing onchain Governance system with s 1694 and it's Going to have the largest most Decentralized government uh for any Cryptocurrency probably by the end of The year so when you have something like

That it's really hard for a Gemini to Wake up or somebody to say oh we're Gonna kill those guys now you know it's Annoying when Masari writes a report and Completely ignores us when our tvls gone Up by like 3x or 4X and it's annoying When you have eight million assets Issued on cardano and people say it's a Ghost chain but what the does it have to Do with the price of tea in China we're Not here to win friends you know we're Not here to to play nice with a group of People whose only goal in life is to get Rich we're here to change the world you Know we're here to decentralize the World we're here with it's a Missi Driven project and everybody who's part Of it is pushing in that particular Direction so we're playing a different Game um and everything is looking great You know the technology is looking great The development velocity is looking Great the level of community engagement Is looking great there's now a members- Based organization thousand plus members That are governing cardano from a Project management perspective the GitHub repos have been transferred over To it intersect is now in charge of that Uh and it's it's going along you know Swimmingly and we have plenty of Liquidity cardano's on 200 exchanges It's all around the world jfsa says it's A good asset um and all the way on down

So you know it HS and Haws and abs and Flows and eventually you will get those Asset back stable coins whether it be Circle or something else and you know It's just like coinbase listing I Remember years ago I was a when coinbase It happens you maybe sometimes a little Later but it happens uh and you know the Community just basically decides what The priorities are and from our Perspective we write great code we do Good science and we make sure that That's always available as a a public Good to get card on where it needs to go Better late than never as they say with Uh perod now you're talking about es and Flows well when you say yeah it's about Being best in Market not first in Market That's what Apple does like nobody give A about VR and now we got the Apple Vision Pro and then suddenly everybody Cares about VR and AR it's like Journalism with coin Telegraph you know You're not supposed to be just first out There you're supposed to have actually Real information and not you know leak Things like a spot well that you bring Up Apple they didn't have the first Smartphone either now when you're Talking about algorithmic stable coins Though a lot of people don't know this Is a passion of yours you've been Involved with this since before ethereum I think you started a company over a

Decade ago looking into algorithmic Stable coins how close are we in your Opinion to having a truly decentralized Stablecoin that just works on chain Without any centralized entity behind It so I tend to look at it in more Abstract terms so first off you have an Asset okay so you got you got Charles Coin or whatever you want to call that Asset and that Asset you have one of three views it's Going to go up it's going to go down It's going to stay stable it's going to Trade within a range so products will be Built in all three categories and some Of those products are to take advantage Of the direction and some of those Products are to prevent you from Suffering undo harm as a result of that Direction so you have contracts for Difference you have options you have Synthetic products all types of things Algorithmic stable coin is effectively What that is because you take highly Volatile thing and what you're trying to Do is dampen the volatility such that You push it into that middle category of Flat and somebody has to take the risk The downside in exchange for the upside And you create a Marketplace for that And there's a million different ways to Do this but every different way carries Some nuances in the fine print so some Ways are very economically efficient but

They don't have full dampening and they Can't survive high volatility it's what We saw with Luna so it worked until it Didn't and then there was C atrophic Failure otherwise what we try to do with Bitshares and Jed are very expensive to Create because they're over Collateralized but they have much more Dampling capability so they can Historically survive terrible economic Conditions but they're very expensive to Create those assets you can't you know You can't like create this magic third Option where it's cheap to create and Perfectly dampened from volatility the Best you can do is is make it a little Cheaper to create but then create Marketplaces but somebody has to be on The other side of the trade and take the Laws and that has to be understood in a In a reasonable way so Jed is really uh A research project around what is the Best you can do in terms of safety and Stability and then it's a game of Gradual relaxing and moving towards the Other side so you get more economic Efficiency and creating marketplaces Where that's okay you don't run into a Luna style situation this is important Because it is essential for Cryptocurrencies to survive we cannot Achieve the vision of being real Currencies running nation states and Being truly decentralized unless you

Have value stability and credit those Are the two fundamental life Bloods of Every economy in the world okay and if You oh I'm a Bitcoin Maxi bitcoin's Going to conquer everything great take a Loan in it so I'll make you guys a deal I'll lend you 100 Bitcoin you have to Pay me back 110 Bitcoin next year you Gonna take that loan oh no maybe you Come out way ahead I remember Bitcoin 69,000 and came down to like what 20 and Maybe you come out way behind I remember Bitcoin at 250 and it went up to 20,000 You if you can't price your money over Time you can't have credit if you can't Have credit you don't have an economy Economy relies on that because poor People need to be able to build wealth They need to be able to fractionalize Things so they can buy homes cars Education these types of things to move On so you need value stability it's a Fundamental characteristic if the only Way we get it is to take a legacy asset That has a centralized issue or that's Regulated by a particular jurisdiction And inject that in that becomes the king Maker who controls the entire ecosystem If you have a decentralized asset with Decentralized collateral run by a smart Contract with the blockchain as the Custodian guess what the asset can't Pick winners and losers and the asset Has perfect Fidelity and you never run

Into the tether is it there or is it not There scenario so algorithmic stable Coins are a natural progression they're The hardest thing to do because either You do it right but it's too expensive To be useful or you do it wrong and it Works until it doesn't that no one has Crack that middle ground yet but it's an Essential component especially when you Go multi asset multi-chain and it's Something we're working on we're Researching and I think it's the most Important outside of decentralized Governance thing that we can do as a Firm yeah and you brought up the Brenton Wood system and the falling of it back In the 1970s when we came off the gold Standard you know the outlook on bitcoin Is very interesting there you know would We take a loan on it today I'm curious To get your outlook on what that would Be in 10 to 15 years if we are on this System this never ending depreciation of That dollar because the wage versus Prosperity Gap it's turning into the 99.9 to one yeah we' we've entered it Years ago it's capalm team orange people They just they can't understand history Gold how many gold loans are going on Right now tell me the volume of them and How many people are willing to take Loans in Gold like the price is volatile you Can't price it properly so that is the

Ultimate long arcc deflationary asset That's been in markets for over 5,000 Years the mowans used it 3,000 BC so you Can't look at me and say oh well one day You know we'll get large enough where Everything will stabilize it won't be Volatile anymore and then you can price It predictably and create markets for it And lend it you can't do it it's a Deflationary asset and that's okay you Can use those to back and create good Monies that's what we did with Brett Woods and other such things and you can Use those to create marketplaces don't Undervalue the value of digital gold It's a super valuable thing and it's a Super powerful thing but it's I 100% Agree on that what I wanted to jump off Of that too was the fact that since the 1970s we've seen this inevitable station Of predatorial capitalism that's Consumed this and centralized our Markets with Wall Street Etc we're now Watching that roll over into crypto Crypto to me at this point has turned Into a wall Street 2.0 I mean your Bitcoin M Pools we can talk about Centralization on a lot of different Scales to you know where the miners are Created whether that's in China or you Know whatever jurisdiction it's involved With are you worried that that Decentralization iohk is reaching for is Impossible in the future that is

Provided Us by certain Administrations no no because the assets Don't necessarily have to correlate to Reality if your assets touch real world Assets and those assets are subject to Legacy governance then obviously yeah You have huge problems associated with That but if they're synthetics that are Generated as a concept that lives in the Cloud they could follow any governance Scheme and live in their own world and Have their own properties for it and That's basically what we've been doing With most most of crypto historically in Crypto and it's only a recent phenomena Where we started linking the real world With the uh with the you know crypto World and the problem is that the crypto People don't know how to play that game And the ones who do were smart enough to Basically take the golden handshake and Get out and the and the other ones are Getting their their clocks you know Cleaned they're they're getting kicked Out and you know big guys are coming in Taken over and of course there's a lot Of useful idiots floating around in the Twitter space and the YouTube space Basically saying oh look how great this Is number go up I'm getting so much Richer yeah okay uh yeah but you're Losing your soul along the way yeah but Never go up you like everything's going Great never go up yeah well there's

Another metric that they've been leaning On lately and that's transactions per Second now you recently stated Transactions per second actually isn't That important it's transactions per Transaction a lot of people don't know Cardano has that capability could you Just explain that briefly yeah so go to Eo. and you actually visually see it um And that's the easiest way of explaining It so if you bring that website up Extended ut. Soxo Dog um what that is is a real-time view Of the cardano network and what's so Cool about it is that as these these These are blocks of cardano and if you Zoom out a little bit you actually can See that each of those are transactions And inside those transactions are are Actually many different events and so That transaction per transaction Basically means that one transaction Carries many events so some of those are Nft issu inss and some of those are are Dex swaps and some of those are just Asset movements but they're all inside One transaction the thing is when you Deal with a evm style system th those Are relatively Atomic in that each Transaction has one concern so they Don't get bundled and batched together Whereas here they are so you see those Giant things with all the red stuff

That's a single transaction and and That's like nft issuance and all those Things so that so all that's happening In one transaction so is our transaction The same as an ethereum transaction no Or salana no it's a completely different Accounting model and the analogy I like Using is multicore to single core so Back in the day uh you know when we had The single core processors how we Measured performance with gigahertz so You know Intel and AMD they're fighting Each other and oh I got a two gigahertz Chip oh I got a three gigahertz chip and The consumer was trained with gigahertz They oh well more is better then Suddenly you had these architectures Where be 2 GHz but it outperform a 3.4 GHz chip and they're like I don't get it I was told number go up better well hang On architecture software operates Differently so different accounting Models have different Notions of Performance and success and so I I tend To look at it from different criteria do You have predictable pricing do you have Fast finality do you have uh reasonable Uh uh service meaning that when you want To transact you're able to transact and Can you do the types of transactions That you care about so a good high Performance system should be able to Keep up with load regardless of how many Users come on in and it's not a vanity

Metric of well this x amount of Percentage or whatever that's something Computer scientists can look at and and Figure out optimal ways of batching and Doing these types of things the other Thing is that the when you look at real Life performance there's tons of stuff That happens offchain in all systems Like 90% of all your in ethereum is Running on infer and Alchemy and openc And these other platforms doing all These things and then eventually they Settle on the Chain that's a pretty good Idea using the chain as a notary and Using the chain as a proof aggregator or A Batcher as opposed to trying to do Intermediate things conceptually it Makes sense let's say we're playing a Poker game do you think it's a good idea That every hand every bet every single Thing we did during that poker game is Remembered forever uh you know on a Blockchain no what you want is a fair Game you you want that the money going In balances with the money going out the Winners get paid the losers have to pay And that it's a fair game and that the Deck is shuffled appropriately all that Stuff that happens with that game you Can hash the entire state of that and It's one 256bit thing you put it on so You have auditability it's immutable It's timestamped but you don't want to Preserve megabytes or gigabytes of of

Unnecessary bloat that exists this is The entire point of rollups is the Entire point of State channels the Entire point of these types of things Extended utxl was purpose-built to make This Paradigm easy because it's Deterministic and isomorphic with the on And offchain you can easily go to stuff Happening offchain and go back onchain And it it just works seamlessly and it's Really great for dexes it's really great For a Litany of use cases like State Channels uh and that's where the future Is going you know everybody's moving in That particular direction because it's Impossible to build a blockchain system Where everything runs in a shared State First it's non- deterministic and second How do you Shard it and third how do you Store it I mean you think about what are The consequences of thousands of Transactions per second in the Single Shard system talking about gigabytes of Data moving on a regular basis so what You have a 10 gigabit fiber optic Connection running like how many people Have that as a home thing you don't so Ends up having like five data centers That run your entire blockchain Infrastructure that's not what we signed Up for we didn't sign up for Google or The NSA to run our systems we signed up For them to be distributed in homogene And heterogenous and they may disagree

With that you know but you know again if Your only metric is number go up you're Like well you know I built something Number go up I sold I bought at one and I sold at 10 I yeah these guys are Geniuses but it's basically an Overglorified rub Goldberg Amazon WB Services I don't give a number went Up that's what we do we care about Decentralization we care about the Future we care about interoperability as An ecosystem which is why we invested so Much time effort money in doing things The right way and as a testimony to that Every single year cardono has grown in Every Dimension uh from transaction Volume to assets uh being issued to the Amount of smart contracts running on the System to the overall capabilities of The technology we've never looked back We just keep getting where we need to go And we're getting to a reality where you Get that predictable pricing getting to A reality where you get that predictable Performance inside the system which is The single hardest thing to chase in a Distributed system with reliability yeah And you know you bring up a lot of very What seems just very logical points and Perspectives on this that a developer Obviously is going to have no idea on How to understand which brings up Probably my last question here in Regards to a lot of the criticism that

Cardano does face of course you know on Twitter I know you're very socially Active and constantly battling people Out there and defending cardano's name But doesn't that all all worry you with Just the way markets perceive crypto in Both terms of a community base whether It's salana versus cadano or regulation Based where it's Congress versus Crypto okay so I I got a question for You guys like name the top five Polo Players in the world right Now top five Polo players well you know What I'm going to have to give a big fat Goose egg on that one I can't name one I Did just watch the crown and I know the Royal family likes to play think I saw Mark wallberg you know wear a polo shirt Once well Mark Wahlberg can stop a Hijacking and win any polo match I Believe okay so what so why why I say That because right now you know Polo's Kind of Niche and bespoke and if you're In it you know it and they're super Competitive and I bet these guys all Hate each other and there's like this Guy slipt with this guy and this guy did This and whatever right but the vast Majority of us have noing clue and That's where crypto's at right now we're Still in a situation where crypto is Very Niche from a mainstream Zeitgeist And people are much more likely to know Where Taylor Swift is at any given

Moment than to know what Charles Hoskinson said over Twitter versus Vitalic butterin or these other things And weend to take it because we live in The bubble just like the polo players Take it but it hasn't reached that level Of familiarity so the best thing to do Is to return to First principles and Just keep relentlessly focusing on the The things required for Mass adoption And mass utility and being useful to uh People who really do care about some Fundamental principles people want to be Their own bank people should own their Own identity people should be able to Verify that when they vote for something Their vote was counted correctly and People should be in charge of their Assets these are fundamental human Rights and we should also try to Preserve and protect the freedom of Association Commerce and expression and That's the point of the systems and we Should only fight for systems that do That I don't particularly care if it's Ethereum or cardano what I care about is That the systems have those capabilities And they fight to preserve and protect Those capabilities and then we talk About how do we build applications that Have that built into them that are Competitive meaning that they they that They're able to actually run with the Centralized services and out compete

Them in some way the good news is we're Starting to get there as an industry in Terms of the ability to do computational Privacy or the resiliency requirements And the reason being is ESG is untenable In a multi-polar world where Russia Hates America America hates Russia and Everybody's you know how do you do Global warming how do you do carbon Reduction when China and Russia America Can't talk to each other anymore you Need a transnational private system a Blockchain based system to do that and You go to cop 28 they say we have to Spend a$ 150 trillion dollar to rebuild The entire world infrastructure to be Carbon zero you know whatever the that Means okay well how do you do it you Have to have blockchains to do these Types of things so when you have a Collaboration problem amongst people People who can't or don't trust each Other that's where we win and we have to Build the tooling so that that can Actually get where it needs to be we Wake up and 10 15 years you have billion People using your system they don't know They're using blockchains but they're Using it and what's great about it is if You built them the right way they Preserve and protect that freedom of Association Commerce expression and they Preserve and protect basic human rights Along the way it's just a natural

Incumbent property in the system that Can't be natural well speaking of it Can't be changed nor can uh you know the Loss of truck so when you bring up the Loss of trust I can't help but think of NFL referees and before we let you go You know one final question I know You're a Denver Broncos fan who do you Think is going to win on Sunday and Charles the question everybody wants to Know are you a Swifty okay so you're asking a Denver Broncos fan to pick between Casey and The 49ers it's like you son of a Um the middle play K we play KC twice a Year every year and there's been some Great games especially when we had pton Manning that those were fun it's always Hard to be Casey especially Arrowhead It's it's just brutal um they're both Good teams but I think Casey is probably Gonna win uh I don't want them to but I Think they will uh and uh I think a lot Of people gonna lose their in mind Because Taylor Swift is going to be like Involved in the Super Bowl at an insane Level and the people who love her it's The best thing in the world the people Who hate her there's like a globalist Conspiracy to like you know re like Joe Biden or something I think VC is is on That train right now um the thing I Don't get about Taylor is how did she Get so popular because she it's not like

She's like a new person who just came Out of nowhere and then suddenly she's Super po she's been around for a long Time you know I remember the Kanye West Taking her Grammy and be like ah you Know that's not fair that that was like 2009 yeah Beyonce had one of the Greatest music videos of all time which History showed he was correct does this Confirm you're saying cardono is the Taylor Swift of blockchain it's been Around forever and it's going to go Viral with four albums uh Here in just the next couple of Years I would love to be the Taylor Swift the blockchains that would that Would be I just don't think I have the Body for it I'm going to cold plunges Every day but I don't think that's gonna Make any difference here well we just Installed one ourselves I might have to Take one with you in spirit at least Charles it's always been a great time I I you know I think we uh finally Solidified your stance on whether not Your Swifty cold plungers are great Falconry is great concrete is great he's Building bunkers in his back can't wait To see the new bunker I know we all know You're building one Charles but I'm not Building a bunker Zuckerberg's building One he even has a submarine dock with His his bunker in Hawaii I did not hear About that one he has a submarine dock

Yeah when did that get leaked I didn't Know that part all right well that's What I hear through the graef find he's Paid spent all this money to build this Big bunker under his house but then he's Got like a submarine with his yacht and He can leave and like privately dock Underwater get Elon get Elon on the horn To get the boring company come out to The Wyoming ranch and you know who knows Where connect to after That VAV schmill uh wrote this lovely Book like how the world works or Something like that he talks that There's four substances that run the Entire world one of those four Substances is cement you it's the second Most common substance used outside of Water it's everywhere when you start Looking for it uh you can't get away From it and so understanding that is Essential to understand how to build Blockchain systems blockchains are about Taking the world around us and putting Them into a format where you go from Don't be evil to can't be evil you can't Ignore the things that run the world Whether it be steel Plastics ammonia or Cement so I also own a construction Company I buil stuff all the time and Like half our budgets the concrete side And the dirt moving and these types of Things so you got to keep up with it you Know you got gota gotta learn every day

Something new keep yourself fresh are You anticipating integrating cardano With supply chain Logistics mechanisms And concrete it's the cement of the Industry or you know what pulled you Into cement first you know well car Reduction is the big one because they Actually want to pull carbon out like 70 80% reduction in concrete carbon so They're doing things like pelons and Other things like flash to to try to Offset because cement is so energy Intensive to construct but you have to Measure it so actually there's a big Discussion about getting iot sensors Into your concrete supply chain and then You can kind of measure it from many Different angles everything from was it Dried and cured correctly and the Workability of it and also what ad Mixtures did you put in like super Plasticizers or other things so there's A there's a big conversation there it's A super complicated field the ACI is a Huge organization and everybody you know Does this but from our P part you know We'd love to see supply chain integrated Uh into the whole concrete life cycle uh And so we can get a better understanding Of the environmental impacts so Everything from how you create your Aggregates to where the cement came from And keep an energy scorecard and then Every year you can kind of make it more

Efficient the thing that really bothers Me is we have Technologies like Geopolymer concrete they last 2,000 Years or longer it's probably likely That the pyramids were actually concrete And they weren't cut but poured back in 2400 BC using geopolymers and if they Last 4,400 years you ask yourself why Aren't we doing that why do we get Cement that lasts 100 years you know Does that make any sense to build Structures this way I don't like the Planned obsolesence of construction I Like going to places where things last a Long time and there needs to be a big Conversation uh about construction Techniques that have more sustainability So it's a big passion of mine it's a Side pass I have to ask you on that just Really quick because this is something That's been eating at me for years at This point I went and actually met with Ronda Sanz to talk about ESG and the Potential of Bitcoin mining and the Consumption of that energy being Converted to capture that negative Energy you have companies like cruso Energy I believe clean spark is starting To do this where they're starting to Capture those CO2 and carbon emissions And convert it into a net value through Miners do you see that all all actually Gaining a massive part of this industry Because the sounds of that to me sounds

Like true ESG right there's no weird car Credit system that is just like nfts and 99% of them are just you know all It is actually real ESG so there's two parts to Bitcoin Mining so there's the usefulness of the Computations and then there's where the Energy comes from to actually do the Computations and these are slightly Different things so we wrote a lot of Papers on useful proof of work and it Turns out that you can actually start Doing more general purpose operations And I think the first part of our Industry where that's going to be Relevant is for as6 for zero knowledge Computations these rollups and these Recursions are so expensive iens in Terms of computing it makes sense to Actually amortise that cost using proof Of work if you can do that and so that's Going to be something in 3 to 5 years Which will be a big deal but then what You're talking about is the other side Of it which is where does the energy Come from and uh and you know how do we Generate that turns out there's a lot of Waste energy like flare gas and other Things so you go to North Dakota there's So much wind energy that they can't Transmit because the lines can't handle It you're just wasting kilowatts so Capturing that and then converting that Into a hard asset like Bitcoin is a

Pretty interesting concept and actually Um it means that Bitcoin starts Transcending the Bitcoin Network this is Something team orange doesn't fully get You know once you've mined a Bitcoin You've mined a Bitcoin it represents Something there's a scarcity behind it There's an energy behind it it doesn't Matter what network it lives on you can Wrap it and send it to ethereum you can Wrap it just like when you extract gold From a mine does that gold only have Value because the mine you take it out Of still is running no so uh it is it is Important that we start quantifying how Much energy came into these things Because I longterm believe the Bitcoin Network will its biggest enduring value Will be creating something that floats Around and it's deflationary but not Necessarily running it as a payment System and and keeping that mind open uh Long term but I am bullish on useful Proof of work we created a protocol Called minor to do multi-resource Consensus where you can add proof of Stake with proof of work together in one System and we continue to do useful Proof of work study right now we we have Uh related sets but the very next thing We're looking into is um machine Learning training so these large Language model training and also zero Knowledge optimization with useful proof

Of work for that we'll probably put that Into midnight the machine the uh zero Knowledge optimization with as6 yeah Those who don't know midnight is a Partner chain on cardano that's going to Just help make privacy a little bit more Uh of a normal thing within crypto Because it's one thing to have a private Transaction it's a whole another to have A private smart contract we have true Privacy whether it's school records Medical records what have you but Charles very excited to see what Midnight's going to bring very excited To just see cardano's growth in 2024 I've been a long-term believer in the Chain I'm just going to continue I'm Even more convinced after talking to you Today I know your my mind a lot I think You transcended a lot of people in the Chat today they're like man we need Neuralink just so we can keep up with You uh but yeah absolute pleasure having You on today Charles thank you for Joining us uh I know we have about a Million other questions but hopefully We'll have you on again very soon Absolutely a lot of fun guys thank you So much [Music] Cheers